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David Galbraith
1. From: gary@flowcyt.cyto.purdue.edu (Gary Durack)
David,
For my own use, I will pay the shipping cost for an EPICS
750 system with dead lasers from anywhere in the
continental U.S. (Basically take it off someone's hands.)
Without lasers I will pay the shipping costs for the circuit
boards only. I'd suggest scrapping the rest.
Working Coherent lasers are worth $5000 - $12000 depending
on their condition.
As a complete system, anyone who pays more than $25,000 for
an old instrumnet is probably paying more than they should.
Also FYI (and you can iclude this in future email) I will
install old Coulter instruments anywhere in the world
for $600.00 per day plus parts and travel expenses.
thanks,
gary
2. From: Peter Lopez <PLOPEZ@sorter.dfci.harvard.edu>
In reply to David Galbraith, I think this is an important topic-
the street value of used flow cytometry equipment. Of course the
larger multilaser machines value will have to take into account the
lasers included and their tube output/age. Also the availability of
parts is an important consideration.
The folks at Cytomation might be able to help out here, since they are
involved in the aftermarket add-on business, and should have an idea of
what these older instruments are worth.
Peter
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Peter A. Lopez (617)632-3179 (voice)
Dana Farber Cancer Institute (617)632-3139 (voice)
Core Flow Cytometry Facility NO FAX!
44 Binney St. Room J-312
Boston,MA 02115 PLOPEZ@sorter.dfci.harvard.edu
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
3. From: jwj@po.CWRU.Edu (James W. Jacobberger)
David
I just paid $100 for an Ortho Cytofluorograph 50H
James W Jacobberger
4. From: kelley@mrc.com
With regards to David Galbraith's question, I think the used
instrument market offers a number of possibilities. I'm sure
that most of us know of at least one good flow cytometer lying
around under a piece of plastic waiting for a good pair of hands.
I have a FACS 440, single laser system which is only used for the
occasional single cell sort and rarely as a backup sorter when the
FACStar Plus is unavailable. If I could sell this system I would
use the proceeds to purchase an ACDU for the FACStar Plus and eliminate
the only reason I keep the FACS 440 around in the first place. In
that sense, the actual worth of the 440 to me is a little over the price of
the ACDU. I would consider offers within that ballpark but please keep
in mind that that figure would not include a laser (I would keep it for
a backup) and your choice of computer would be none or the PDP-1123 (if
I can dig it out of the warehouse). While I realize that this limits
the applications, it is still a bargain for a workhorse sorter that is
extremely reliable and efficient. The instrument is well maintained and
fully functional as both a sorter and cloning instrument.
Keith A. Kelley PH 203-937-2872
Miles Research Center FAX 203-937-6923
400 Morgan Lane kelley@mrc.com
West Haven, CT 06516
5. paul@flowcyt.cyto.purdue.edu (J. Paul Robinson)
I am currently serving on an ISAC committee established by Zbigniew Darzynkiewicz (President of ISAC) and chaired by
Franchesco Mauro. The committee is to assist disadvantaged countries in the
general field of cytometry. We are trying to organize workshops in several
countries and generally help our colleagues in countries going through very
tough economic times.
My suggestion is that we try to accumulate several instruments to donate to
certain institutions. We would try to get B-D and Coulter to perhaps provide
help in shipping and setting up their appropriate brands as well. If not,
it might be possible to arrange the setup otherwise. If done correctly,
the instruments that we broke our teeth on (sometimes litterally!) would be
put to good use and we would not feel like we were not getting "value" !
There are good reasons to do this:
1. The PR generated for your institution would be significant
2. The instrumentation is not performing useful tasks if it is unused
3. Good scientists in other countries desperately need our help
4. There are probably many years of work left in old instruments if they
have TLC
5. I think that ISAC needs to be more proactive in these situations - it
should lead not follow!
6. This will make you feel real good as a responsible scientist doing a little
extra
7. Your Dept head, Dean, VP or other executive heavy might see this as a good idea and provide institutional support throught
international programs etc.
8. You will have extra space when you get rid of the old machine
Problems that need solving:
1. Old machines need good service - who services them?
2. Is there any point in sending machines with expensive lasers that already
economically stressed institutes cannot repair or maintain?
3. Who pays the shipping if we can't get B-D or Coulter to help? (This woudl be
great PR for these companies by the way).
4. How do we organize this (I will worry about that if there is +ive response.)
5. We don't want to send junk to our colleagues
6. fill in here.......
Please respond to CYTOMETRY not me personally as I think this must be discussed
by the network. Darzynkiewicz will be visiting my lab at Purdue for the next 3 days and I intend to discuss this proposal with
him. Prompt replys will be shared with him directly.
Regards
Paul Robinson
Purdue University Cytometry Labs
6. tdeloher@bigmac.mskcc.org (Tom Delohery)
The suggestion to donate vintage flow cytometers to "disadvantaged"
countries is an excellent one. Our institution donated an EPICS 752
to an organization called "The Children of Chernobyl Relief Fund"
about a year ago. I don't know all the details but somehow it was
arranged with the assistance of Coulter.
I think Keith Kelley's comment, " I'm sure that most of us know of at
least one good flow cytometer lying around under a piece of plastic waiting
for a good pair of hands.", identifies the heart of the problem. Many
instruments are abandoned, under-utilized or misused due to the unavailability
of "a good pair of hands" (preferably attached to a body containing something
resembling a brain). About 2 years ago I salvaged a FACS 440 from an
institution that was in much better condition than the FACS IV I was
using at the time. In Manhattan, space is a precious commodity and
there is a tendency to discard valuable equipment just for the room. So, while
there is a need to establish a mechanism to donate flow instruments to
disadvantaged countries, the bigger problem is qualified people for training,
operating and maintaining the instruments.
It's interesting that this discussion is taking place now because there is
a similar discussion about "general lab equipment - incubators to centrifuges"
taking place on BIONET. It is extremely frustrating to see usable equipment
going to waste because it isn't "state-of-the-art" or qualified people are not
available to use it.
Tom Delohery
--
==============================================================================
Tom Delohery | Internet: tdeloher@bigmac.mskcc.org
Manager, Flow Cytometry Core Facility | Phone: (212) 639-8729
Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center | Fax: (212) 794-4019
==============================================================================
They're growing houses in the fields between the towns!
7. "Christopher A. Worth" <CAWORT01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Biomedical Engineer, BCC
Phone: (502)588-7191
I read with more than a little amusement regarding comments that "trade in" ins
truments are put into a warehouse. Nothing could be farther from the truth. M
y last place of employment (UAB) traded in my old Epics C for a BD instrument.
The instrument went directly to the dump. My former lab supervisor wasn't eve
n allowed to get the laser off to give to the physics departement, or engineeri
ng college. While I don't know what Coulter's policy is, I do know BD's Policy
, JUNK IT!!! She tried very hard to salvage the laser for other uses but they w
ouldn't budge. so I wouldn't hold your breath on getting "trade ins" to send t
o anybody else.
Chris
8. Dave Coder <dave@nucleus.immunol.washington.edu>
The fate of another brand instruments traded in to a competing vendor
is indeed summarized in two words: land fill. They want to keep their
competitor's instrument out of the marketplace. However, instruments
traded in to the same company to upgrade an old instrument could meet
with a different fate.
Where people know what they're doing, old instruments can be
refurbished and do useful work. Getting rid of old acquisition
computers for new ones is not difficult. I and several others have
done data acquisition programs on PCs to connect to older flow
cytometers. However, issues of service, parts, support, etc. for
proprietary components are often a problem.
Dave Coder
9. "Christopher A. Worth" <CAWORT01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Biomedical Engineer, BCC
Phone: (502)588-7191
>> reply to DAVE CODER <<
It is obvious that "rival" gangs want to eliminate competition. However, sendi
ng instruments to disadvantaged countries is going to be tough enough without s
ending "non standard" equipment. While this is a noble undertaking, it just do
esn't strike me as being very practical. If the countries are that disadvantag
ed how are they going to even be able to operate the instrument in the first pl
ace.
chris
10. Alice.L.Givan@Dartmouth.EDU (Alice L. Givan)
I might be stating the obvious, but it seems to me that if we want to know
whether "elderly" cytometers could be useful in eastern European countries,
we should ask some of the excellent cytometrists who work in those countries
(for example, Drs. Szollosi, Tron, and Lustyik from Debrecen, Hungary).
Alice Givan
Alice.L.Givan@dartmouth.edu
NCCC Flow Cytometry Laboratory/Department of Physiology
Dartmouth Medical School
Lebanon, New Hampshire 03756-0001 USA
voice 603-650-7907 fax 603-650-6130
11. From h1913szo@ella.hu (Janos Szollosi May 24, 93)
Reading the letters from Alice Given and Eric Martz I felt
obliged to comment the debate on OLD INSTRUMENTS.
(Eric, as you can see I am on the network, although I receive the
letters with a few days delay.)
I think this is a great idea, and we should try everything to
make it work.
Form Hungary I can see the following problems:
The Companies are not interested to resell used instruments, they
want to sell new ones. They have some chance here since some
support is coming into these country from the European Common
Market in programs like PHARE, FEFA, ACCORD. We can write grants
and some lucky ones can buy the best equipment on the market.
- From the same amount we could buy 4 or 5 used equipments making
5 laboratories happy, but this is not the interest of commercial
companies.
It is a good point that instruments should come to places where
there is some cytometric background. One possibility is that
departments (with cytometric experience, like us) help other
institutes in the same city or nearby to install the used
equipment and provide support in the first two year. The other
possibility is that visiting scientist returning form western
countries might have the necessary knowledge for running flow
facility.
Places receiving used flow cytometers should have also some
financial background since the plasma tube should be replaced
once in a while.
If the intent of a lab from Eastern Europe is serious they should
find a way to pay for the shipping. If they cannot come up with
the necessary fund how would they replace the laser tube? May
be the grants (ACCORD, PHARE) should accept the application
operating with used instruments, since this way the budgets can
be kept much lower.
I have heard an example from Bill Hyun (DMC, UCSF) that his FACS
IV will de donated to a lab in Bohemia and the Czech airline
covers the expenses of shipping and installment.
The other help could be when special spare parts are needed in
this countries for upgrading their old flow cytometer. I already
new one person (Janos Szollosi) who could use the optical
detection system of a FACS IV or FACS starplus (this one piece
of metal from the back of the optical bench holding PMTs,
filters, mirrors.) I have PMTs and the appropriate electronics.
If you want to donate this spare parts please contact me.
Janos Szollosi
Department of Biophysics,
Medical University School of Medicine,
Nagyerdei krt. 98
H-4012 Debrecen, Hungary
Phone/FAX: (36) (52) 312-623
E-mail: h1913szo@ella.hu
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