Re: Bad FACS data presentation -- more discussion points.

From: Ann Atzberger (atzberge@EMBL-Heidelberg.de)
Date: Mon Nov 05 2001 - 10:20:34 EST


Mario,

I don't like the idea of post publication review - the words libel and
defamation come to mind.

Nor is it a case of "them (the scientists) and us". It's just us the flow
community that is failing to as you mentioned:
 1. gain respect or recognition in core facilities
 2. provide an framework to educate users of FC

I find that the word ISAC carries a lot of weight here in the Facility; and
people will listen if you talk about international standards.

if the "odd" scientist can get inappropriate data published; then
personally I believe that is his God given right.

Ann





At 14:22 01.11.01 -0500, you wrote:
>  ""   While my comments below may rankle a few people--nothing new for
>me--please be assured that I mean no disrespect to anyone.
>    (What a surprise.)
>    This has been strongly needed for a long time, and I will be more than
>happy to help in any way I can.
>  ""  A document such as is proposed isn't going to be considered outside
>of our little group of cytometrists.
>   If they haven't read those excellent texts (or even parts of them), I
>don't think that presenting them with even a brief missive is going to
>budge them.
>  ""   ""  Scientists are the ultimate curmudgeons.
>       Giving the flowjock a piece of paper to hand the scientist isn't
>going to be of much help in this regard.
>  "" "" "" an Operator, despite the fact that most of the Operators around
>know far more about flow cytometry than they do.
>          To say otherwise would be to accuse them of insecurity.)
>  I don't like being negative, but I'm willing to bet that for the time
>being, it's going to be the only way to get the attention of the people
>outside our community.
> Of course, once we have their attention, once we've demonstrated that
>there are serious flaws in most presentations, then  Then they will  Then
>they will""  And maybe they'll start listening to the Operators, to the
>Managers.
>    Only by empowering the Operators and the Managers to advise the
>scientists in a meaningful way will result in long-term success.
>
>         Everyone (including scientists) already thinks that scientists are
>arrogant.
>       This is nothing unique to flow cytometry; the recent burgeoning
>field of gene-chip analysis has many problems that could be similarly
>addressed.
>    Just when is it that we've come to the last ditch, if not now?
>
> mr
>    ""<>  It's very short, it hasn't been updated in a long time, but it's
>still valid...)



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