From: Akpinar, Edip (NIH/NIDDK) (EdipA@intra.niddk.nih.gov)
Date: Thu Apr 24 2003 - 09:52:56 EST
Dear All: Thank you very much for your responses and advices for the SUMMIT software of DakoCytomation. I am attaching a summary of responses below. The manufacturer of the software also responded and I attached their response (Eric von Seggern, Software Manager, DakoCytomation, eric.vonseggern@dakocytomation.com). After getting your recommendations, I worked again with the program and I realized that it takes some learning curve to familiarize with SUMMIT; a longer learning curve than WinMDI requires (at least for myself). I am working with an XP based computer and I have 512 MB RAM. Probably 1024 MB would work much better as Don Walker mentioned. To my understanding, the program saves all studied files automatically without even asking the user, which may be a reason to slow computer's speed. SUMMIT seems superior with regard to compensation abilities after acquisition. And, it has more convenient gating tools and it keeps templates of analysis in the memory in order to be used later again. WinMDI does not have those features; you can never keep any template in WinMDI. However WinMDI does have some practical advantages, it is faster, you can show percentages on histograms (I have not been able to show the percentages on histograms in SUMMIT), you can make easier transitions from one file to another in WinDMI (e.g., SUMMIT does not have "next file" command) and so on... . Other thing, SUMMIT crashes more frequently than WinMDI. One reason for that could be the utilization of much larger memory by SUMMIT. Therefore, I can say that if I need a quick look to some files I would prefer to use the WinMDI. I would prefer SUMMIT, however, if I have time and need more "sophisticated", "corrections needed" and "to be saved" analyses. I know that I cannot cover everything here to compare all features of two programs. I am sure, DakoCytomation representative can help us sometimes and improve their software according to our criticism. In fact, I believe that everybody will have his or her own opinion about those programs after using them, as you will notice in responses below. Thank you very much for your help and attention. Edip AKPINAR NIDDK-TAB-NIH RESPONSES: I didn't see your regular post. I downloaded it several months ago and played with it. It wasn't slow on my computer, but it sure was slow in my head. I've never seen anything that was so user unfriendly. I would do all my compensation electronically and analyze with WinMDI. Sincerely, Dan Rosson Dan Rosson Ph.D. Lankenau Institute of Medical Research 100 Lancaster Ave. Wynnewood, PA 19096 www.limr.org. Hi Edip, I've been running Summit by Cytomation on my MoFlo for acquisition and analysis for several years now. Our current version is 3.1 build 839. Our computer is a Pentium III dual CPU 650MHz. I don't think compensation is slow on our computer. Do you have any specific questions? Cytomation does have online help files. Let me know if I could be of any assistance. Lucy Lucy Brown Analytical Cytometry Core Beckman Research Institute/City of Hope Medical Center Duarte, Ca (626)359-8111 X63306 FAX (626)358-7703 lbrown@coh.org You can rest assured in that you are not the only person using Summit. Anyone who operates the MoFlo, uses that program. I don't believe I saw your original post--since I occasionally sort on the MoFlo, I do have experience, but not very extensive, with Summit. Julie Oregon State University I can assure you that there are Many users of Cytomation software. Are you talking about Summit? You did not mention the name of the software in your email. I would also ask the question, What type of computer are you putting it on and what memory do you have in it. Also, what operating system are you using? I apologize but I did not see your original message and you may have stated then. But I dont remember your email coming across the bulletin board. If you can give me more information, I used to Work for Cytomation and am very familiar with their software and may be able to help. Good Luck, Mike If you describe what you mean by "works slowly" and "my computer" mean, then I will provide feedback! Andrew Beernink [SMTP:ABeernink@novasite.com] Edip, I would suggest min. of 512K RAM on the computer you use with Summit. 1024K is best. Memory is pretty cheap if your computers mother board and architectre can handle it. Have your computer support people check what will go into your SIMM/DIMM slots. Warren Buddenbaum at Cytomation (800.822.9902) is a great resource person to contact. Don Walker Celltech R&D Bothell, WA Hi, My sorter is a MoFlo from Cytomation and I use Summit software all the time. I never had problem of computer being slow. My computer with the sorter is a Window NT work station. I also installed the off-line Summit on the other two computers in our lab with Window98 as operation system. Noboday ever complained about it. Nan Nan Jiang I work with cytomation software, and I do not have any problems to compensate, If you have any questions , let me know, GIMMIG sylvain Flow cytometry Operator Ottawa research institute Edip, I use Summit on my desktop PC routinely with no problems. I analyze files up to 1e6 events, and performance is more than acceptable. I'm running Win2000 on a P4-1.8 with only 256 Mb of RAM. Are you running Summit on a relatively new computer? How large are the files you are analyzing? Are the files stored on your local HD or on a remote network volume? kb Keith Bahjat, Ph.D. Scientist, Cancer Vaccines Cerus Corporation Concord, California keith_bahjat@cerus.com Hi Edip, I sometimes use Cytomation summit. It has some interesting features but seems to require a lot of RAM to work efficiently. My experience is that it works fine on the PC workstation of the MoFlo, which is intented to use it anyway, but on my mac under virtualPC-windows 2000, it takes ages to do the simplest thing. The main problems are a tendency to crash when too much memory is needed and the total absence of support from cytomation. Good luck Pierre Edip, I am very familiar with Summit by DakoCytomation. I run a MoFlo (version 3.1) and a Cyan (version 3.3), both using Summit. I like Summit, but it does have some problems, specifically with analysis. How it handles gated overlays is especially awkward. I have been in close touch with DakoCytomation and they tell me that most of the problems will be addressed in the next release, version 4.0. I have found that Summit works best when the files you are process sing are on your computer, not at a remote location on a server. I place the data files in a folder with the database and drag that folder to my desktop and open the appropriate database. When I'm finished I drag the folder back to the storage location. I have found that by doing it this way the links to the files are kept intact and the software works faster. If you have specific questions please email me back. Dixie Polakoff Flow Cytometry Lab Protein Design Labs, Inc. (510) 574-1528 FAX (510) 574-1500 Hi Edip, I guess I must have missed your question. I am currently using Summit because I am acquiring 9-color data on my CyAn. So far, the only other software I have tried that can handle the data is FlowJo (CellQuest does not seem to be able to handle the data). My Summit does not run slowly, however I have been told by DakoCytomation there is a new build of the software to be available very soon with a few upgrades in it. Free as always. Randy Fischer NIAMS/NIH 9000 Rockville Pike Bldg 10, Room 6D50 Bethesda, MD 20892 fischer1@mail.nih.gov Hi: I am using Summit on my MoFlo. We routinely doing 3-6 color analysis and sorting. In general it runs fine. It is not slow on my NT machine with two 850MHz processors(consider old in today's market). I do have some problem once in a while. It can crush without a cause, especially with database. Hope the new version DakoCytomation is developing will resolve these problems. Alan Ho Flow Cytometry Laboratory Boston University School of Medicine & Boston Medical Center EBRC Rm 633B 650 Albany Street Boston, MA 02118 Tel: (617) 414-5225 Fax: (617) 414-5280 Email: ayho@bu.edu Hi The cytomation soft is the Summit, it comes with the MOFLO. I have both versions, the hardware and non hardware that is free. I cannot use it at home because of the graphics requirements, but it works fine on my workstation. It requires lots of memory and display memory but it runs fine if the PC is fast enough. Good luck Gabriel Sternik Ph.D. Gene Expression Laboratory-B, The Salk Institute for Biological Studies 10010 North Torrey Pines Road La Jolla, CA 92037-1099 Phone: (858) 453-4100 ext 1846 & 1356 Fax: (858) 453-2573 Hello, I was reading the Purdue Cytometry mailing list when I came across your description of problems with slow operation of Summit software on your Windows XP system. We had not experienced this problem in our testing. I would like to work with you on resolving this problem. Could you please send me details of your system (CPU, memory, virtual memory, size of your database file) as well as a more detailed description of the slowness you experience. For instance, does this occur only during compensation, sample replay, etc? Or do you see this in all operations? I appreciate any information you can give us to help us improve our software. Thanks, Eric Eric von Seggern Software Manager DakoCytomation eric.vonseggern@dakocytomation.com Edip, The software that DakoCytomation offers for analysis is called Summit, perhaps that is why you did not get as many responses as you thought you would. I've used it on my MoFlo to sort (running NT4.0) on my PC for analysis (running Windows XP), and now on my CyanLX (running NT4.0). It has performed very well on both platforms. I currently run Summit 3.1 build 844 on my XP computer for analysis. It rarely crashes or gets hung up. I've analyzed files from a FACScan (CellQuest), a FACSCalibur (CellQuest Pro), an LSRII (FACSDiVa), and of course from my MoFlo and Cyan (Summit). It can handle data from all the afore-mentioned platforms. If you have more specific questions, you can contact me directly. Ryan Ryan Duggan Sr. Rsrch Technologist IACF-Flow Cytometry Facility University of Chicago (773)702-9212 rcduggan@midway.uchicago.edu <http://iacf.bsd.uchicago.edu/> Dear Edip, I did downloaded Summit from Cytomation (Dako) to perform off line compensation (or compensation post acquisition). It does work on my computer but is painfully slow and I have to close all the other programs otherwise it crashes. I also tried FlowJo for off line compensation and it works beautifully. And you can get a demo writing to them. Unfortunately the demo last only 60 days and after that you have to buy the program or remove it from your computer. But if you have a little money to spare is really worth its price (around £1000). I have just downloaded a demo of FloMax from Partec, and I am still waiting their authorisation to use it, but it is supposed to do the same type of analysis much easily. If you are interested I will let you know how it goes. If is not offline compensation that you want but just an analysis program that runs on PCs you can always get WinMDI, it still works very well and it is free (see Purdue University web site <http://www.cyto.purdue.edu/> or University of Wales web site <http://www.uwcm.ac.uk/study/medicine/haematology/cytonetuk/>) Regards Mara
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