From: LINKER@CSMC.EDU
Date: Fri May 01 1998 - 12:00:25 EST
From: IN%"lenmar@jps.net" 30-APR-1998 21:52:59.04 To: IN%"linker@CSMC.EDU" "Mariana Linker-Israeli" CC: Subj: core response Coincidence? 3 weeks ago, 2 people wanted to know the response of this forum to the question I had raised more than 4 months ago. I compiled all answers, except those that my system could not read, and forward them now for Jill, at the Mayo Clinic, Mary in Seattle, and anybody else that may be interested. My question was: "At this institution, the core facility operator runs daily a FACScan and a FACStar+ between 8AM to 2PM and the investigators pay for acquisition and analysis of their data (hourly) fees. Investigators who were trained to use BD flow cytometers and have flow experience, want to run their samples and analyze them, or only analyze them, and pay a reduced fee for using the equipment. They are willing to work either after 2 PM when the operator is gone, or on one of the 2 cytometers that are not in use between 8AM to 2PM. Up to now, this option was vetoed categorically by management on the questionable wisdom that "every piece of equipment that is used by multiple users becomes a piece of junk". I know that many core facilities give the option for individual use by investigators, and I would like to ask the people in such facilities for their own experience and conclusions. Looking forward to some illuminating responses". I thank again those of you that responded, and here are the answers (minus names of responders and institutions): 1.It would appear you have a political problem to deal with along with efficient management of a flow cytometry facility. I help set up and run the flow cytometry facility for our college of veterinary medicine since 1982. We currently have a FACScan and FACSort. We will in the future add a FACS Vantage or equivalent flow cytometer. The FACS Star and similar instruments are best managed with a well trained technician that can oversee operation. If properly trained other members of a research facility should be able to run the instrument on off hours. The technician can check for alignment during working hours to assure the instrument is in top condition. For sorting experiments, the day 8 to 2 pm is a little short. The FACScan/FACSort is a different story. The instruments were designed for clinical and research applications in situations where there would be multiple users. This has been important for operation of our facility. We operate on a zero budget with no dedicated technician. We charge for time spent. The cheapest rate is offered for those who run their own samples. We charge for training and running samples. The charge is set to defray the cost of service contracts, supplies, and upgrades in software and instrument replacement when needed. We have had a few mishaps but the FACScan and FACSort have been very reliable and stable with multiple users. It has required careful supervision to keep users operating the instruments correctly. In our situation there has been very little down time because of misuse of the instruments. The facility is available 24 hours/day and on weekends and holidays. If your facility has a service contract on the FACScan, there is no reason not to make it available for use 24 hours a day at reduced cost. A senior investigator should be in charge and oversee operations and supervision of the dedicated technician. This doesn't help with the politics but lets you know how we are operating our facility and covering the costs of operation. 2. At the Flow Cytometry Facility we operate two instruments, a FACScan and an EPICS 753. We let trained users operate theFACScan on a 24 hour per day basis but deemed the EPICS 753 too complex let anyone run on their own. Another department here had a BDdual laser FACS 440 that they let multiple people use and their down time seemed to be significantly higher than what we have experienced. 3. We have a FACScan that was purchased in a cooperative agreement with multiple departments. There are numerous trained users who by and large treat the machine with respect. There are minor problems, but an experienced senior technical person acts as enforcer and troubleshooter. Overall, it works very well and ensures complex multiparameter data is collected and analyzed in the desired fashion. 4.I have been running a core facility for the past 12 years. The way I operate my lab is to train the individuals on the Facscan till I am satisfied that they are competent to run their own samples. On the subject of the Facstar +, no one touches the machine except myself. There are too many knobs and adjustments to be made and people have a tendency to want to twist knobs and make adjustments and it just doesn't work on a Facstar+. It is hard to mess up on a Facscan. I hope that this helps. 5. The Core Facility has 2 cytometers (a FACScan and one FACStar plus). The facility is staffed with 2 full time employees (Monday-Friday 8am -5:30 pm). Core Facility Staff are responsible for the day to day operation and the oversight of the laboratory (scheduling, tracking of data, troubleshooting the instruments, project troubleshooting, running samples, analysis, teaching, and upkeep of the instrumentation). The FACScan is open for anyone that is trained to use the instrument. Individuals who wish to run the FACScan by themselves must schedule time with a core staff member so that the core staff can verify the users training and ability to operate the instrument unassisted. Core Staff members have the authority to approve or not to approve unassisted use of the instrument. Core Staff members also have the authority to suspend unassited usage if the user has mistreated or abused the instrument. Core staff members also train individuals to use the FACScan. Our facility has been running this way for several years and we have not had any major problems or down times . We rely upon Core Staff members to do daily maintenace on the instruments (calibration and shut down). After hour usage (unassisted) is scheduled in advance and the Core Staff goes over (in detail) the shut down procedures. The user is informed that if the procedures are not followed correctly, they will not be llowed to use the instrument after normal working hours (nights and weekends). Our FACScan is 8 years old and still running well. It is used by a variety of individuals (post-docs, PI's, graduate students, technical staff, Core Staff). The instrument is rarely down and the users treat the instrument well.... it is not and never has been labeled "a piece of junk". The FACStar plus instrument is only run by core staff members. The Core Facility charges researchers a reduced cost if they want to acquire their own samples. we do not charge a fee for unassisted analysis. if you would like to talk more on this subject, please feel free to call me at the number listed below. 6. The Facscan can withstand severe abuse by the trained 'outside ' users. But get ready though- it will take a beating. Sheath tank will be run dry, machine left on, air aspiration etc, will all occur. I would not even consider multiple users on the sorter. Maybe two, trained people. But that is all. 7. I second -'s message - train FACScan users well, and don't let them touch the sorter (FACStar). 8. We do have "self-operators" who get to use the equipment off- hours at a reduced rate. In general the system works well for us and for the investigators - many cannot get samples ready to go during normal working hours. I think it is important that there be both training and validation of self operators. Claiming that one has run the instrument somewhere else is not quite enough - every facility will have its own idosyncracies. In addition written instructions and "cheat sheets" also help. Our training takes 3-4 hrs., and validation is done by having the candidate. operators run their experiments under supervision. Doing this does put additonal responsability on facility staff which they may neither want nor be good at, but without it the potential for equipment to become unusable is high. 9.I agree with the advice that - posted on the mailing list. I have two facscans that are used 12-15 hours a day by different users. I provide them with initial training and some very specific procedure sheets (how to turn it on and off, etc.). Then they are on their own. Of course, during the day we are here to help them if they run into trouble. But you do have to have some specific rules for them to follow regarding supply/waste tank levels, running bleach then water and turning it to standby when done, etc. We have over 100 trained users on our instruments and it runs very well. The sorter is a different thing. I do allow users to sort after hours but only if the sorter has been set up for them. All they are trained to do is monitor their samples, switch tubes when necessary and shut it down. If they have a clog, they are out of luck. They can only shut down and go home. In my 14 years of experience, it is very difficult to train an occasional user to set up, or reset the droplet breakoff after a clog. They do not use it enough to grasp the details to set up without destroying the instrument! I definitely suggest limiting acess to the sorter without extensive training. 10. Typically, low operator interaction instruments (FACScans, Caliburs, XLs, etc.) are okay for investigator self-operation, where the operator only manipulates the computer and the optical bench is safely contained. In the case of our XL, investigators, or their designates, must undergo training and initial supervised operation before they are allowed to solo. On my sorters, I usually require a far more advanced level of training and experience, meaning that most users don't run sorters. I think, however, with effective training and follow-up, along with careful monitoring, you shouldn't have problems. 11. Due to the high demand for the use of our flow cytometers, we allow "outside" users to use the FACScan on their own, only after receiving adequate training from the operator. We also do not allow most users to use the FACScan after hours. Few, very competent users have this privilege. Still, we occasionally have someone who misuses the FACScan. Sorters are absolutely off-limits to anyone other than the operators of the lab. 12. Might I suggest What you need is a really good head flow cytometrist. One that could look at so called knowledgeable operators and then decide wether or not that person would work out with the machine of choice. I agree that you are asking for problems with multiple user formats, but it is done. Again it always comes back to a responsible person to oversee the operation and the participants. 13.We run a FACScan and Analyser. We have a policy of training and encouraging all users to run and analyse their own experiments. Firstly we are employed to perform diagnostic work and our own research, so we don't have the time to spend reading other users experiments. However more importantly, we find that users have a far greater understanding of the results they get if they not only run their samples but also analyse them, once fully trained of course. We find they are able to manipulate instruments settings and also data anaylsis to achieve results that are more relevant, as at the end of the day, if they have the knowledge available, they can change conditions to suit their needs. Sometimes its difficult for them to convey to the operator what they want, especially if they don't know the capabilites of the equipment. To maintain this facility in top condition there are strict guidelines and everyone is monitored and supervised to some degree, depending on experience. Also we make the facility available to experienced users we trust, out of hours and so far have had no problems. We have had some instances where trained users have found some important results only by looking at the data as it comes up, and analysing it with these observations in mind. 14. If it is a core facility then the best option is to have the trained people operate the instrument I personally run a core facility and only rarely let people continue experiments after I leave. there is one other person that will do an occasional analysis when I'm on vacation. But even then, there is usually something screwed up when I return. If the instruments can easily be supervised (when somebody is running the "other" instrument) well, that shouldn't be a big problem. but I would never tolerate routine operation when I'm not around to watch. 15.The FACScans are the safer instruments to allow multiple users, but there definitely will be more problems unless the users follow ALL the rules (which never happens). A lab down stairs have problems all the time with their shared FACScan & FACScaliber (not Core machines)! "Experienced" operators can't be expected to have as much competence as a 10 year full-time operator! We allow only two operators to use the FACStar+ (both with over 8 years xperience). ilters can be changed, different lasers used, etc. Documentation (checklists, sign-offs, etc) might help you, but we won't let more users touch the sorter. Analysis during off-hours BY TRAINED personel *shouldn't* cause any grief! Just be sure to use a logging system 16. I work in a facility that has two facscans , one for clinical and one for research use. The research one is only operated by the individual investigators and techs. Everyone has to take a few hours course with the flow tech to ensure that they know how to use the facscan. Lets be realistic, you could train a chimp to operate that machine. There have been no problems that I know of. The Facstar+ is much more complicated and needs more training obviously. In our place only the tech can use the FACSTAR+ - with good reason, as its relatively complex. But the FACScan has 20 different techs using it without much difficulty. My own conclusion: There was overall agreement that all investigators should have access to the FACScan, provided they hvae or get a good, short training and follow the rules. It also seems to me that the level of enthusiasm for this approach correlated directly with the experience, self-confidence, and education of the responders. Obviously, the FACStar+ (sorter) was judged as best left alone. Thanks again, Mariana Linker-Israeli. Cedars-Sinai Medical Center, Los Angeles, CA 90048. "Linker@CSMC.edu" Return-path: <lenmar@jps.net> Received: from dry3.jps.net by CSMC.EDU (PMDF V5.1-7 #20691) with ESMTP id <01IWHUOQ92VK8WZ54I@CSMC.EDU> for linker; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 21:52:53 PDT Received: from p5-120 (lax-port286.jps.net [206.18.118.197]) by dry3.jps.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA25335 for <linker@csmc.edu>; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 21:54:10 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 21:51:39 -0700 From: Leonardo Israeli <lenmar@jps.net> Subject: core response To: cyto-inbox Reply-to: lenmar@jps.net Message-id: <199805010454.VAA25335@dry3.jps.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1162 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
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